What gets to me is that a system so over committed to locking up poor people in the name of justice won’t provide that same justice, false or not, to the friends and family of Sean Bell.

@Mitchell: WORD. It’s like - okay, the system is flawed, but if we’re stuck with it, can’t it at least come down on the right side of things for once?

What you’re thinking about though- if justice isn’t prison, than what would it look like- that’s a big conversation right now. And for people who’ve been having it for awhile, this case might help us stay grounded. Cus you can’t theorize your pain away. And for people angry over this case, hopefully that will bring some new voices into the conversation.

I really appreciate and agree with this take.

I guess I’m just trying to find a way to join the theoretical with the grassroots, with the families who are on the front lines. How do we raise the perception of justice to the next level with those families?

@ la Mala: Yeah, that’s the tricky thing. In part, I think that “we” - people who aren’t dealing so directly with this sort of police oppression and violence - don’t have much business telling families on the front lines, people who have actually been victimized in this way, that maybe the justice they’re looking for isn’t the “right” justice.

On the other hand, I think that we and our communities (and here, I mean communities of people who are often targeted or mistreated by the police and the judicial system) absolutely need to try to think of justice on larger/different/more effective/more meaningful scales. Part of why prisons have been able to become so prevalent in our society is because we’ve been taught that there’s no other way.

Thanks for this - I’m having some of the same reactions too. Given that our current options for justice are so narrow, and so *unjust*, what do we do?

@Katie: I think that it’s important for us to focus on things besides individual prosecution of these three cops. Since the larger system is what’s fucked up, we need to continue to push for dramatic changes in how the entire police & judicial systems work. (Easier said than done, right?) Of course, it’s hard to do that when courts seem to sanction actions like the ones these cops took, which is why the verdict is so angering even if we think that convictions & prisons don’t really solve anything.

And although this is not so applicable to this case, I think that our communities need to start thinking about ways to have safety and accountability without relying on the police & judicial systems to enforce that. Groups like the Safe OUTside the System Collective of the Audre Lorde Project are doing excellent work around stuff like that. It’s difficult stuff to envision, but it’s imperative that we try.

One of the more “grassroots” reasons people are against prisons isn’t because they don’t fix our problems, but because of how the system of justice is skewed. And the aqquital brings that up to the front.

I think that we live in a country where, with power and/or privilege, a lot people of color will turn to traditional logic about poor people. I mean, a lot of poor people already have it. But for the large part, cops that work outside of luxury areas view everyone as a suspected criminal. Black, white or latino trigger fingers still only fire 50 shots out of hate or rage.

What infuriates me is that the mayor wouldn’t give a speech like that about a murdered cop, a murdered white person, or pretty much anyone. What gets to me is that a system so over committed to locking up poor people in the name of justice won’t provide that same justice, false or not, to the friends and family of Sean Bell.
And of course, if these 3 were locked up, would they be in the same boat as other prisoners? Or would they be treated to luxury, Club Fed style? Of course that wouldn’t be justice at all. But there would be some justice in a conviction/punishment if only because official action was taken.

What you’re thinking about though- if justice isn’t prison, than what would it look like- that’s a big conversation right now. And for people who’ve been having it for awhile, this case might help us stay grounded. Cus you can’t theorize your pain away. And for people angry over this case, hopefully that will bring some new voices into the conversation.

I completely agree that within the NYPD not everyone is blue, there have been numerous cases proving that

I guess I’m just trying to find a way to join the theoretical with the grassroots, with the families who are on the front lines. How do we raise the perception of justice to the next level with those families?

I know there isn’t an answer- at least not an easy one- just thinking outloud in response to the very good points you make.

That said, what would justice look like then? What context does the mother of Sean Bell or any of the mothers seek justice in. How do we hold these officers of color accountable?

This is the problem - I don’t know how to answer those questions. Plus, I have the luck to be able to sit around and ponder these sorts of dilemmas because I’m so far removed from the problem. Whatever oppression I may face, I still get to chill at home on a Friday night, watch TV, and not really worry about this case or ones like it on a personal level - I’m not threatened by police violence like that (at least, not to that degree), nor is anyone in my immediate family. It’s easy for me to ask these questions. Far be it from me to expect people who are dealing with this shit to sit around questioning the justice they seek. I hope I didn’t come off as expecting or asking for that.

I do think, though, that it’s important for us who are lucky enough to be able to think about this stuff in a more theoretical or distant way to think critically about our gut reactions and how they play into a larger politics. That’s something that’s really tough for me to do, personally, especially in a case like this given how much I hate the NYPD and how fucked I think the judicial system is. But like I wrote, I think that some of the cops being men of color really took me to that place of conflict and resulting self-interrogation.

As for how to hold people accountable outside of convictions or sentences or jail time - I have no idea. It’s always hard to think outside of what we’ve been taught for so long is common sense, the only way - prevention through punishment. But there has to be a better, more equitable and more effective solution than the systems we’ve got now. At the very least, if those systems could possibly be truly impartial and fair, that would be something. But I don’t know if such a thing can exist in a larger society that’s most certainly neither impartial nor fair.

What of the phenomenon of “everyone is blue” inside the NYPD and officers of color who dare to speak out against the blue wall of silence are punished for not leaving their person of color status under their uniform.

Good points. Yeah, “everyone is blue” insofar as people of color are supposed to check their identities - and often their communities, their families, their kin and loyalty - at the door for some mythical greater good that’s supposedly being protected by the police. But I guarantee that everyone is not blue in terms of how people within the force are treated (or mistreated) depending on their race.

All of this, of course, is not to say that these cops get a pass. Hell no. I’m not about to deny their agency because they’re people of color; I hate that shit. Sure, choices may be limited and may be shaped by some pretty heavy forces, but choices are still there. And I’m as angry as the next person to see these cops, all three of them, walk away with (so far at least) a relative slap on the wrist. But really though - it’s the NYPD that’s getting the slap on the wrist. The larger establishment is really the key perpetrator here, and in turn is the real murderer that’s getting off yet again.