Comments on: random thoughts on race http://www.angrybrownbutch.com/2006/07/19/random-thoughts-on-race/ politics, media, culture and life from a queer boricua in brooklyn Tue, 06 Jan 2009 13:09:15 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.3 By: Chris http://www.angrybrownbutch.com/2006/07/19/random-thoughts-on-race/#comment-5952 Chris Mon, 07 Aug 2006 19:59:26 +0000 http://www.angrybrownbutch.com/2006/07/19/105#comment-5952 I hear you-- but this is where that "personal responsibility" piece comes in. Allowing POCs to define what racism is and how it manifests isn't about consulting the POC down the hall for enlightenment (which is just ridiculous). At least how I understand it, it's instead about truly engaging in the "following" part of a leadership equation. Like in a largescale, consistent way. The point is, community and dialogue exists that you have access to and privilege to tap into (this blog, for one). That's the lead to be followed. I hear you– but this is where that “personal responsibility” piece comes in. Allowing POCs to define what racism is and how it manifests isn’t about consulting the POC down the hall for enlightenment (which is just ridiculous). At least how I understand it, it’s instead about truly engaging in the “following” part of a leadership equation. Like in a largescale, consistent way.
The point is, community and dialogue exists that you have access to and privilege to tap into (this blog, for one). That’s the lead to be followed.

]]> By: odanu http://www.angrybrownbutch.com/2006/07/19/random-thoughts-on-race/#comment-5886 odanu Fri, 04 Aug 2006 10:50:43 +0000 http://www.angrybrownbutch.com/2006/07/19/105#comment-5886 I know what you mean about us white anti's getting over sensitive. I got pulled aside by a good friend a decade ago and told to stop being so gung ho about her ethnic group's problems. Frankly, I think it's an expression of privilege that we do it. When you are a POC, there is enough racism "in the air" that you have to pick your battles. A white person aware of and alarmed by racism <i>can afford</i> to get nit picky and oversensitive, because racism does not permeate our lives in the same way. As for the T-shirt, I completely agree. I work in an environment where I am surrounded by Black dialects and slang, both young adult and older adult versions. I never, ever "co-opt" the slang of the young adults, and very rarely that of the older adults (though since they are my generation, we share more slang in common, so there's some overlap). It's my belief that if I started spouting off street talk, it would be like wearing a t-shirt I have no right to. I am an ally, not a person of color, and I <i>have to</i> keep in mind my subordinate role in the fight against racism. Not my goals, but the goals of the people I'm allied with. I know what you mean about us white anti’s getting over sensitive. I got pulled aside by a good friend a decade ago and told to stop being so gung ho about her ethnic group’s problems.

Frankly, I think it’s an expression of privilege that we do it. When you are a POC, there is enough racism “in the air” that you have to pick your battles. A white person aware of and alarmed by racism can afford to get nit picky and oversensitive, because racism does not permeate our lives in the same way.

As for the T-shirt, I completely agree. I work in an environment where I am surrounded by Black dialects and slang, both young adult and older adult versions. I never, ever “co-opt” the slang of the young adults, and very rarely that of the older adults (though since they are my generation, we share more slang in common, so there’s some overlap). It’s my belief that if I started spouting off street talk, it would be like wearing a t-shirt I have no right to. I am an ally, not a person of color, and I have to keep in mind my subordinate role in the fight against racism. Not my goals, but the goals of the people I’m allied with.

]]> By: s http://www.angrybrownbutch.com/2006/07/19/random-thoughts-on-race/#comment-5879 s Tue, 01 Aug 2006 17:29:09 +0000 http://www.angrybrownbutch.com/2006/07/19/105#comment-5879 Chris -- No no, I'm sorry, that's not what I mean at all. Let me try to explain myself... There are often situations where I am in the company of only white people (I work in the sciences, this is unfortunately not an uncommon situation). If there is a racist situation (at work, in conversation, etc), I don't think it's appropriate, or, frankly, a feasible solution, for me to just sit back and hope that the non-existant POC working down the hall will come by and enlighten me with what they think and let me know if *this* is really a situation that merits attention or not. And even if they were there, I'm not sure it's there responsibility to constantly be dealing with the poor uninformed white person who needs their guidance in order to see racism. After all, if they're working in such a situation, I'm sure they have better things to deal with (even ignoring the actual work they're there to do). So... I understand your point. I was never disputing that. My point was that it's not enough to just say "follow the POC's lead." That's great if the POC is there to follow the lead of. But, again I ask, what if they're not? s. Chris –

No no, I’m sorry, that’s not what I mean at all. Let me try to explain myself…
There are often situations where I am in the company of only white people (I work in the sciences, this is unfortunately not an uncommon situation). If there is a racist situation (at work, in conversation, etc), I don’t think it’s appropriate, or, frankly, a feasible solution, for me to just sit back and hope that the non-existant POC working down the hall will come by and enlighten me with what they think and let me know if *this* is really a situation that merits attention or not. And even if they were there, I’m not sure it’s there responsibility to constantly be dealing with the poor uninformed white person who needs their guidance in order to see racism. After all, if they’re working in such a situation, I’m sure they have better things to deal with (even ignoring the actual work they’re there to do).

So… I understand your point. I was never disputing that. My point was that it’s not enough to just say “follow the POC’s lead.” That’s great if the POC is there to follow the lead of. But, again I ask, what if they’re not?

s.

]]> By: Chris http://www.angrybrownbutch.com/2006/07/19/random-thoughts-on-race/#comment-5877 Chris Mon, 31 Jul 2006 15:49:10 +0000 http://www.angrybrownbutch.com/2006/07/19/105#comment-5877 POCs aren't around? Dude, where do you live? Or work? The point is, us white people seem to be most enthusiastic about pointing out racism when POCs *ARE* around. And anyway, there are a lot of POCs to take the lead of, whether you know them or not. And if you happen to live in some small Scandanavian town, then there are other ways to support-- you are online, for one. Usually if POCs aren't around, there's a good reason. POCs aren’t around? Dude, where do you live? Or work?
The point is, us white people seem to be most enthusiastic about pointing out racism when POCs *ARE* around. And anyway, there are a lot of POCs to take the lead of, whether you know them or not. And if you happen to live in some small Scandanavian town, then there are other ways to support– you are online, for one. Usually if POCs aren’t around, there’s a good reason.

]]> By: s http://www.angrybrownbutch.com/2006/07/19/random-thoughts-on-race/#comment-5836 s Fri, 28 Jul 2006 22:32:02 +0000 http://www.angrybrownbutch.com/2006/07/19/105#comment-5836 what about when poc aren't around to follow the lead of? i don't think it's enough to just say "follow the lead of poc in all circumstances" because it's important for while people to point out racism when there aren't any poc present. what about when poc aren’t around to follow the lead of? i don’t think it’s enough to just say “follow the lead of poc in all circumstances” because it’s important for while people to point out racism when there aren’t any poc present.

]]> By: rabi http://www.angrybrownbutch.com/2006/07/19/random-thoughts-on-race/#comment-5810 rabi Thu, 27 Jul 2006 21:31:59 +0000 http://www.angrybrownbutch.com/2006/07/19/105#comment-5810 I was thinking maybe if he were a white person who'd been adopted and raised by a black family... but it would still be weird at best. I was thinking maybe if he were a white person who’d been adopted and raised by a black family… but it would still be weird at best.

]]> By: Chris http://www.angrybrownbutch.com/2006/07/19/random-thoughts-on-race/#comment-5808 Chris Thu, 27 Jul 2006 18:48:07 +0000 http://www.angrybrownbutch.com/2006/07/19/105#comment-5808 I've been lurking around here for awhile, so I'll emerge and say hi. OMGLFRE ("ohmygod let's find racism everywhere") Syndrome is a particularly virulent bug amongst us white people. Especially anti-racist identified people. it's totally already been said here: it's about self-congratulatory proclamation, and also about distance (like, "I need you to know that I can see this because I am NOT this"). Of course, the anxiety implied in being so vocal and self-involved relates directly to the moment of seeing a reflection of one's racist self in what we've learned to identify as "bad behavior." If there's one thing we white people need to do individually and institutionally, it's to follow the lead of POCs. And I agree that this is one more example of that being true. I wonder though about that thing that happens where people look to POCs for guidance about what's racist and then try to justify their inaction around something or another by saying "well, so and so person of color doesn't think this is racist, so I don't either." I think you're speaking to this when you say this isn't incompatible with personal responsibility... but I guess I wonder about what that support role looks like when there's not consensus among POC about what's racist. I’ve been lurking around here for awhile, so I’ll emerge and say hi.
OMGLFRE (”ohmygod let’s find racism everywhere”) Syndrome is a particularly virulent bug amongst us white people. Especially anti-racist identified people. it’s totally already been said here: it’s about self-congratulatory proclamation, and also about distance (like, “I need you to know that I can see this because I am NOT this”). Of course, the anxiety implied in being so vocal and self-involved relates directly to the moment of seeing a reflection of one’s racist self in what we’ve learned to identify as “bad behavior.”
If there’s one thing we white people need to do individually and institutionally, it’s to follow the lead of POCs. And I agree that this is one more example of that being true. I wonder though about that thing that happens where people look to POCs for guidance about what’s racist and then try to justify their inaction around something or another by saying “well, so and so person of color doesn’t think this is racist, so I don’t either.” I think you’re speaking to this when you say this isn’t incompatible with personal responsibility… but I guess I wonder about what that support role looks like when there’s not consensus among POC about what’s racist.

]]> By: Naomi http://www.angrybrownbutch.com/2006/07/19/random-thoughts-on-race/#comment-5790 Naomi Thu, 27 Jul 2006 16:57:22 +0000 http://www.angrybrownbutch.com/2006/07/19/105#comment-5790 The OMG let's find racism everywhere thing kind of makes my head explode. And then I actually feel guilty because like, I should probably be worrying about more important things too, but it gets under my skin for some reason. Basically I think white people should let POCs take the lead in calling out stuff that's racist and deciding what's problematic in any given context when the possible racism is aimed at the POCs, not the white people. It's about agency and leadership and power. And that doesn't have to be incompatible at all with personal responsibility (overused phrase) for white anti-racists or white people doing anti-racist stuff in support of POCs. The OMG let’s find racism everywhere thing kind of makes my head explode. And then I actually feel guilty because like, I should probably be worrying about more important things too, but it gets under my skin for some reason.

Basically I think white people should let POCs take the lead in calling out stuff that’s racist and deciding what’s problematic in any given context when the possible racism is aimed at the POCs, not the white people. It’s about agency and leadership and power. And that doesn’t have to be incompatible at all with personal responsibility (overused phrase) for white anti-racists or white people doing anti-racist stuff in support of POCs.

]]> By: shellshock http://www.angrybrownbutch.com/2006/07/19/random-thoughts-on-race/#comment-5706 shellshock Tue, 25 Jul 2006 05:09:39 +0000 http://www.angrybrownbutch.com/2006/07/19/105#comment-5706 Two things: 1. Jack, your blog stokes the coals of my Seattle heart. I'm white, and I spend an inordinate amount of time in my "good white liberal" Episcopal church trying to educate people there (including myself) about systematic racism, about the shared systematic racism of predominantly white institutions, about the shared systematic racism of even "good white liberal" institutions. It helps to come here and watch you think and spar. And I promise I'm really not trying to brag on myself about being a "good white" person. It's just that I had to sit through a church-sponsored viewing of "Crash" a few weeks ago, where all the nice older white ladies ended up crying (um, because it...hurt? them?), and then concluding, "Well, this movie certainly shows us that everyone is more complex than they first appear." And it got worse from there. So it's awesome and good to be able to come to your site and rest and be glad and cheer. 2. Technical note: Tsidi's site is actually: http://www.jean-grae.com You missed a dash, and I want everyone in the whole world to be able to find her. And the hip-hop section is scandalous. I was trying to save time over Christmas and popped in to purchase a gift for my friend Heath (which is how I found your site, btw), and there was a wasteland. I kept going in circles, thinking "Hip-hop is like the biggest commercial music on the planet. You've got to be kidding me that Under Construction isn't even here." It was really bizarre, like landing on some myopic corporate Holodeck. Two things:
1. Jack, your blog stokes the coals of my Seattle heart. I’m white, and I spend an inordinate amount of time in my “good white liberal” Episcopal church trying to educate people there (including myself) about systematic racism, about the shared systematic racism of predominantly white institutions, about the shared systematic racism of even “good white liberal” institutions. It helps to come here and watch you think and spar. And I promise I’m really not trying to brag on myself about being a “good white” person. It’s just that I had to sit through a church-sponsored viewing of “Crash” a few weeks ago, where all the nice older white ladies ended up crying (um, because it…hurt? them?), and then concluding, “Well, this movie certainly shows us that everyone is more complex than they first appear.” And it got worse from there. So it’s awesome and good to be able to come to your site and rest and be glad and cheer.

2. Technical note: Tsidi’s site is actually: http://www.jean-grae.com You missed a dash, and I want everyone in the whole world to be able to find her. And the hip-hop section is scandalous. I was trying to save time over Christmas and popped in to purchase a gift for my friend Heath (which is how I found your site, btw), and there was a wasteland. I kept going in circles, thinking “Hip-hop is like the biggest commercial music on the planet. You’ve got to be kidding me that Under Construction isn’t even here.” It was really bizarre, like landing on some myopic corporate Holodeck.

]]> By: Jack http://www.angrybrownbutch.com/2006/07/19/random-thoughts-on-race/#comment-5703 Jack Mon, 24 Jul 2006 19:17:07 +0000 http://www.angrybrownbutch.com/2006/07/19/105#comment-5703 Oh, no worries, the tongue-in-cheek came through, though that is always a danger on the internets. As for reverse racism, yup, I reject it as a contradiction in terms. Prejudice supported by power is racism, prejudices unsupported by power is prejudice. Or, perhaps, internalized racism, which is another story. Oh, no worries, the tongue-in-cheek came through, though that is always a danger on the internets.

As for reverse racism, yup, I reject it as a contradiction in terms. Prejudice supported by power is racism, prejudices unsupported by power is prejudice. Or, perhaps, internalized racism, which is another story.

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