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	<title>Comments on: Since apparently my many previous clarifications weren&#8217;t enough</title>
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	<link>http://www.angrybrownbutch.com/2006/06/24/since-apparently-my-many-previous-clarifications-werent-enough/</link>
	<description>politics, media, culture and life from a queer boricua in brooklyn</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 04:39:32 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://www.angrybrownbutch.com/2006/06/24/since-apparently-my-many-previous-clarifications-werent-enough/#comment-25937</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Jun 2007 18:28:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.angrybrownbutch.com/2006/06/24/98#comment-25937</guid>
		<description>Real-estate companies and governments (the parents) are the generals, yuppie white kids (the children) are the ground troops.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Real-estate companies and governments (the parents) are the generals, yuppie white kids (the children) are the ground troops.</p>
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		<title>By: Gabriele</title>
		<link>http://www.angrybrownbutch.com/2006/06/24/since-apparently-my-many-previous-clarifications-werent-enough/#comment-8097</link>
		<dc:creator>Gabriele</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Nov 2006 20:47:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.angrybrownbutch.com/2006/06/24/98#comment-8097</guid>
		<description>I grew up white in the country in Oregon, in one of the most underfunded school districts in the state, where the poor were mostly white and (increasingly) latino. So my experience with urban issues didn't come until after college. On my dirt road--made up of mostly 5 acre wooded plots with pastures--the family who lived in a trailer (and paid me $1.50 an hour to baby-sit their two kids) lived next to a family with a landscaped lawn. My own family--legally poor but educationally priveleged--existed in the middle of these extremes. I'm not sure why I bring this up except to point out that poor whites predominate more in rural areas, which is one reason why gentrification affects poor white families less. 

I suppose I also want to say that while I understand and agree with what Jack is saying about gentrification, it seems much less useful to blame young whites (however exceeding aggravating--and destructive--their presence might be) than to address, as some others have also mentioned, the issues that create cycles of gentrification in the first place. My best friend's family was homeless for almost a year as a kid after her dad left. When her mother re-married and there was finally enough money to buy a house, they (a white family) bought in a poor white neighborhood (with a crack house nearby, and drug dealer on the corner). (Most poor neighborhoods in Portland 20 years ago were white, because Oregon was (and still is, though that is changing) overwhelmingly white. This, of course, is no coincidence, but a result of Oregon's history of racism. Before the civil war, Oregon resolved the slavery question by barring all blacks from the state; after the war, Oregon continued to be actively unwelcoming to people of color. Most African Americans who moved to Oregon did so only during WWII, when they came to work in shipyards.) In any case, the neighborhood they moved in to ultimately gentrified because enough educated hippies moved there (forced there by higher house prices elsewhere in the city). And now their non-profit-job kids could certainly not afford to buy in that neighborhood. So children of that demographic (and *many* out-of-state college kids moving into the city) finally turned to the last ungentrified neighborhood, the African American section of town. I'm not sure exactly what I wanted to indicate with this story, except to emphasize that although gentrification is an economic cycle that is particularly  destructive to the lives of poor people of color, it is a cycle that--this example seems to indicate--operates with or without race along class lines. So if any of us want to see communities remain intact, we have to address the underlying economic processes that drive this. Otherwise, it's just being holier than thou, whether along racial lines, however justified by history, or other lines. As a native Oregonian many of my friends from working class families are constantly bemoaning the influx of priviledged white out of state kids destroying our communities. I do it too--all the time. But it's ultimately just as annoying as hip people of color complaining about the privileged white kids who are (unquestionably) destroying their communities. And as ineffective. 

In some ways it seems to me that the shift that's going on in Portland is just one of reversing the nodes: first, the rich wanted to live in the suburbs: now they've changed their minds and want to live in the city. The poor, who have no choice, must live wherever the rich prefer not to live. So if we want that to change: what are we going to do about it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I grew up white in the country in Oregon, in one of the most underfunded school districts in the state, where the poor were mostly white and (increasingly) latino. So my experience with urban issues didn&#8217;t come until after college. On my dirt road&#8211;made up of mostly 5 acre wooded plots with pastures&#8211;the family who lived in a trailer (and paid me $1.50 an hour to baby-sit their two kids) lived next to a family with a landscaped lawn. My own family&#8211;legally poor but educationally priveleged&#8211;existed in the middle of these extremes. I&#8217;m not sure why I bring this up except to point out that poor whites predominate more in rural areas, which is one reason why gentrification affects poor white families less. </p>
<p>I suppose I also want to say that while I understand and agree with what Jack is saying about gentrification, it seems much less useful to blame young whites (however exceeding aggravating&#8211;and destructive&#8211;their presence might be) than to address, as some others have also mentioned, the issues that create cycles of gentrification in the first place. My best friend&#8217;s family was homeless for almost a year as a kid after her dad left. When her mother re-married and there was finally enough money to buy a house, they (a white family) bought in a poor white neighborhood (with a crack house nearby, and drug dealer on the corner). (Most poor neighborhoods in Portland 20 years ago were white, because Oregon was (and still is, though that is changing) overwhelmingly white. This, of course, is no coincidence, but a result of Oregon&#8217;s history of racism. Before the civil war, Oregon resolved the slavery question by barring all blacks from the state; after the war, Oregon continued to be actively unwelcoming to people of color. Most African Americans who moved to Oregon did so only during WWII, when they came to work in shipyards.) In any case, the neighborhood they moved in to ultimately gentrified because enough educated hippies moved there (forced there by higher house prices elsewhere in the city). And now their non-profit-job kids could certainly not afford to buy in that neighborhood. So children of that demographic (and *many* out-of-state college kids moving into the city) finally turned to the last ungentrified neighborhood, the African American section of town. I&#8217;m not sure exactly what I wanted to indicate with this story, except to emphasize that although gentrification is an economic cycle that is particularly  destructive to the lives of poor people of color, it is a cycle that&#8211;this example seems to indicate&#8211;operates with or without race along class lines. So if any of us want to see communities remain intact, we have to address the underlying economic processes that drive this. Otherwise, it&#8217;s just being holier than thou, whether along racial lines, however justified by history, or other lines. As a native Oregonian many of my friends from working class families are constantly bemoaning the influx of priviledged white out of state kids destroying our communities. I do it too&#8211;all the time. But it&#8217;s ultimately just as annoying as hip people of color complaining about the privileged white kids who are (unquestionably) destroying their communities. And as ineffective. </p>
<p>In some ways it seems to me that the shift that&#8217;s going on in Portland is just one of reversing the nodes: first, the rich wanted to live in the suburbs: now they&#8217;ve changed their minds and want to live in the city. The poor, who have no choice, must live wherever the rich prefer not to live. So if we want that to change: what are we going to do about it?</p>
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		<title>By: amanda</title>
		<link>http://www.angrybrownbutch.com/2006/06/24/since-apparently-my-many-previous-clarifications-werent-enough/#comment-5953</link>
		<dc:creator>amanda</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Aug 2006 21:00:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.angrybrownbutch.com/2006/06/24/98#comment-5953</guid>
		<description>I'm sort of surprised that redlining and de-industrialization aren't part of this thread at all. At lot of black neighborhoods in New York City have been historically undervalued because of redlining. Undervalued is a funky term to use, but from an economists perspective, that is what it is--something besides supply and demand was keeping home prices artificially low.  White homeowners could get mortgage insurance to cover rising home prices in white neighborhoods. Black homeowners couldn't, and you can't get a mortgage without mortgage insurance. So black homeowners couldn't sell what they had and home prices stayed low, relative to comparable housing stock in white neighborhoods. Once there were formal laws against redlining, people black and white, could call it out and insist that banks insure mortgages in black neighborhoods. And with mortgage insurance came mortgages, came rapidly rising home prices, came more affluent neighbors who could afford to buy those homes, came high rents to pay the mortgages and real estate investors who saw the change coming and bought up rental properties.

 Keep an eye on the &lt;a href="http://www.brooklynrail.org/2006-06/streets/dean" rel="nofollow"&gt;Fulton Mall&lt;/a&gt; if you want to understand the relationship between real estate interests and gentrification. I can't drum up the statistics about the volume of business on the Fulton Mall, but it is one of the most vibrant, economically sucessful BIDs in the country, and despite the Jimmy Jazz and Forever 21, it is mostly small businesses that are doing business on the mall (selling Nike and Reebok and other big brand merchandise, so they aren't *that* local) but they cater to a population that is already squeezed by rising rents. The Real Estate lobby wants some little cafes and boutiques so that they can turn vacant space around the mall into upscale condos and collect the high rents, but they are lying liars when they say that the mall as it is is economically troubled. It isn't.

There is more to gentrification than a bunch of trustfunded kids driving rents up.

None of this has much to do with the racism inherent in talking about "frontiers" as though Bushwick was some kind of empty wasteland where no man had yet to roam, but it has a lot to do with why gentrification happens.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m sort of surprised that redlining and de-industrialization aren&#8217;t part of this thread at all. At lot of black neighborhoods in New York City have been historically undervalued because of redlining. Undervalued is a funky term to use, but from an economists perspective, that is what it is&#8211;something besides supply and demand was keeping home prices artificially low.  White homeowners could get mortgage insurance to cover rising home prices in white neighborhoods. Black homeowners couldn&#8217;t, and you can&#8217;t get a mortgage without mortgage insurance. So black homeowners couldn&#8217;t sell what they had and home prices stayed low, relative to comparable housing stock in white neighborhoods. Once there were formal laws against redlining, people black and white, could call it out and insist that banks insure mortgages in black neighborhoods. And with mortgage insurance came mortgages, came rapidly rising home prices, came more affluent neighbors who could afford to buy those homes, came high rents to pay the mortgages and real estate investors who saw the change coming and bought up rental properties.</p>
<p> Keep an eye on the <a href="http://www.brooklynrail.org/2006-06/streets/dean" rel="nofollow">Fulton Mall</a> if you want to understand the relationship between real estate interests and gentrification. I can&#8217;t drum up the statistics about the volume of business on the Fulton Mall, but it is one of the most vibrant, economically sucessful BIDs in the country, and despite the Jimmy Jazz and Forever 21, it is mostly small businesses that are doing business on the mall (selling Nike and Reebok and other big brand merchandise, so they aren&#8217;t *that* local) but they cater to a population that is already squeezed by rising rents. The Real Estate lobby wants some little cafes and boutiques so that they can turn vacant space around the mall into upscale condos and collect the high rents, but they are lying liars when they say that the mall as it is is economically troubled. It isn&#8217;t.</p>
<p>There is more to gentrification than a bunch of trustfunded kids driving rents up.</p>
<p>None of this has much to do with the racism inherent in talking about &#8220;frontiers&#8221; as though Bushwick was some kind of empty wasteland where no man had yet to roam, but it has a lot to do with why gentrification happens.</p>
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		<title>By: G.Botto</title>
		<link>http://www.angrybrownbutch.com/2006/06/24/since-apparently-my-many-previous-clarifications-werent-enough/#comment-5861</link>
		<dc:creator>G.Botto</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Jul 2006 22:14:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.angrybrownbutch.com/2006/06/24/98#comment-5861</guid>
		<description>Tenda! Get a grip with the real world hun!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tenda! Get a grip with the real world hun!</p>
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		<title>By: anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.angrybrownbutch.com/2006/06/24/since-apparently-my-many-previous-clarifications-werent-enough/#comment-5693</link>
		<dc:creator>anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Jul 2006 05:19:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.angrybrownbutch.com/2006/06/24/98#comment-5693</guid>
		<description>the author makes a lot of good points, but i think too much blame is unfairly cast on the white people who actually move into POC neighborhoods and not the overarching conditions that lead to such transitions. it's very easy to point at the ohioan who rents an apartment in bushwick while ignoring the fact that said individual probably isn't particularly wealthy and wouldn't move into that neighborhood if they could afford to live somewhere else. let's go macro here; when the average apartment in manhattan costs over a million bucks, the squeeze is coming from the top down. i'm a white dude who moved into crown heights three years ago (an area newly dubbed by realtors as prospect heights, of course) after being priced out of carroll gardens. to find a one bedroom i can afford, i'll have to move further from downtown brooklyn, probably into bed-stuy. but i'm the bad guy trying to find a ludicrously overpriced apartment on $40,000 a year while the investment bankers and eurotrash who swarmed into manhattan escape unscathed?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>the author makes a lot of good points, but i think too much blame is unfairly cast on the white people who actually move into POC neighborhoods and not the overarching conditions that lead to such transitions. it&#8217;s very easy to point at the ohioan who rents an apartment in bushwick while ignoring the fact that said individual probably isn&#8217;t particularly wealthy and wouldn&#8217;t move into that neighborhood if they could afford to live somewhere else. let&#8217;s go macro here; when the average apartment in manhattan costs over a million bucks, the squeeze is coming from the top down. i&#8217;m a white dude who moved into crown heights three years ago (an area newly dubbed by realtors as prospect heights, of course) after being priced out of carroll gardens. to find a one bedroom i can afford, i&#8217;ll have to move further from downtown brooklyn, probably into bed-stuy. but i&#8217;m the bad guy trying to find a ludicrously overpriced apartment on $40,000 a year while the investment bankers and eurotrash who swarmed into manhattan escape unscathed?</p>
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		<title>By: Doyle Saylor</title>
		<link>http://www.angrybrownbutch.com/2006/06/24/since-apparently-my-many-previous-clarifications-werent-enough/#comment-5164</link>
		<dc:creator>Doyle Saylor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Jun 2006 19:25:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.angrybrownbutch.com/2006/06/24/98#comment-5164</guid>
		<description>Tenda writes;
White people suck the soul and the culture right out of a neighborhood.

and,
Jack, I’m telling you though. White people will remove the soul from a neighborhood in their quest to find a soul. And the soul can’t be killed, because the soul is with the working class,

Doyle;
I could say you are talking about class more than racism.  It's good to recognize gentrification wrecks neighborhoods.  But class requires an over arching sense of commonality that white and black doesn't imply.  I just saw this stat once again.  1 billion people live on 1 dollar a day or 'less'.  3.3 billion people live on 2 dollars a day or less.

Everyone knows there are stupendous problems accumulating in the U.S.   What's astonishing is the sheer inertia on the part of people whose best interest is to change that.  Part of that in my view is the difficulty most people see in uniting.  That's not ordinary people's fault.  It has more to do with the fringe who understand what's wrong from rising.

Iraq is a good example of why fringes hestitate.  Far from being a disaster to the right in this country, the chaos is profitable.  All that is bad is they can't pick up the army for the next war.  That is what the fringe faces here.

You can't complain for long without feeling helpless.  What am I to do?  An old friend of mine here in the San Francisco Bay Area works in Tenant Union organizing.  So he has a sense that things can be done.  If one million people followed his example then things would start moving in terms of solutions.  One million people in 300 million is just a fringe.  But that's the scale of what it takes.
thanks,
Doyle Saylor</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tenda writes;<br />
White people suck the soul and the culture right out of a neighborhood.</p>
<p>and,<br />
Jack, I’m telling you though. White people will remove the soul from a neighborhood in their quest to find a soul. And the soul can’t be killed, because the soul is with the working class,</p>
<p>Doyle;<br />
I could say you are talking about class more than racism.  It&#8217;s good to recognize gentrification wrecks neighborhoods.  But class requires an over arching sense of commonality that white and black doesn&#8217;t imply.  I just saw this stat once again.  1 billion people live on 1 dollar a day or &#8216;less&#8217;.  3.3 billion people live on 2 dollars a day or less.</p>
<p>Everyone knows there are stupendous problems accumulating in the U.S.   What&#8217;s astonishing is the sheer inertia on the part of people whose best interest is to change that.  Part of that in my view is the difficulty most people see in uniting.  That&#8217;s not ordinary people&#8217;s fault.  It has more to do with the fringe who understand what&#8217;s wrong from rising.</p>
<p>Iraq is a good example of why fringes hestitate.  Far from being a disaster to the right in this country, the chaos is profitable.  All that is bad is they can&#8217;t pick up the army for the next war.  That is what the fringe faces here.</p>
<p>You can&#8217;t complain for long without feeling helpless.  What am I to do?  An old friend of mine here in the San Francisco Bay Area works in Tenant Union organizing.  So he has a sense that things can be done.  If one million people followed his example then things would start moving in terms of solutions.  One million people in 300 million is just a fringe.  But that&#8217;s the scale of what it takes.<br />
thanks,<br />
Doyle Saylor</p>
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		<title>By: North</title>
		<link>http://www.angrybrownbutch.com/2006/06/24/since-apparently-my-many-previous-clarifications-werent-enough/#comment-5158</link>
		<dc:creator>North</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Jun 2006 01:05:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.angrybrownbutch.com/2006/06/24/98#comment-5158</guid>
		<description>sure did.  I think I remember you riding your scooter around campus.  I'm a couple years younger than you are.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>sure did.  I think I remember you riding your scooter around campus.  I&#8217;m a couple years younger than you are.</p>
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		<title>By: Tenda</title>
		<link>http://www.angrybrownbutch.com/2006/06/24/since-apparently-my-many-previous-clarifications-werent-enough/#comment-5152</link>
		<dc:creator>Tenda</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Jun 2006 18:17:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.angrybrownbutch.com/2006/06/24/98#comment-5152</guid>
		<description>Jack, I'm telling you though. White people will remove the soul from a neighborhood in their quest to find a soul. And the soul can't be killed, because the soul is with the working class, the POC, the poor - so much of what made cities cities were these groups - and society will always have these groups. So if these groups have to move to some god forsaken suburb or exurb, then they'll just do exactly what they did to the cities when the white people left - they made it a great place full of stories, full of soul, full of meaning. So fuck it - white people can have the city, and live like rats in their tall buildings, claiming the "culture" of coffee shops and sushi restaurants - until 30 or 40 years down the road, they'll stop, and say, "where the fuck did all the minorities go? we came to this city for minorities!" and they'll look at themselves and go, "well, this sucks." Just like they did with the suburbs. Then they'll go try to redefine themselves again and look for a soul elsewhere.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jack, I&#8217;m telling you though. White people will remove the soul from a neighborhood in their quest to find a soul. And the soul can&#8217;t be killed, because the soul is with the working class, the POC, the poor - so much of what made cities cities were these groups - and society will always have these groups. So if these groups have to move to some god forsaken suburb or exurb, then they&#8217;ll just do exactly what they did to the cities when the white people left - they made it a great place full of stories, full of soul, full of meaning. So fuck it - white people can have the city, and live like rats in their tall buildings, claiming the &#8220;culture&#8221; of coffee shops and sushi restaurants - until 30 or 40 years down the road, they&#8217;ll stop, and say, &#8220;where the fuck did all the minorities go? we came to this city for minorities!&#8221; and they&#8217;ll look at themselves and go, &#8220;well, this sucks.&#8221; Just like they did with the suburbs. Then they&#8217;ll go try to redefine themselves again and look for a soul elsewhere.</p>
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		<title>By: Tenda</title>
		<link>http://www.angrybrownbutch.com/2006/06/24/since-apparently-my-many-previous-clarifications-werent-enough/#comment-5150</link>
		<dc:creator>Tenda</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Jun 2006 18:00:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.angrybrownbutch.com/2006/06/24/98#comment-5150</guid>
		<description>Yeah, working at a nonprofit group with a college degree isn't exactly lower class. I grew up lower class. I couldn't and I still can't dream of living in Manhattan. I was thinking about this. White people suck the soul and the culture right out of a neighborhood. Manhattan has no soul. Brooklyn is coming pretty damn close to having no soul.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, working at a nonprofit group with a college degree isn&#8217;t exactly lower class. I grew up lower class. I couldn&#8217;t and I still can&#8217;t dream of living in Manhattan. I was thinking about this. White people suck the soul and the culture right out of a neighborhood. Manhattan has no soul. Brooklyn is coming pretty damn close to having no soul.</p>
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		<title>By: Jack</title>
		<link>http://www.angrybrownbutch.com/2006/06/24/since-apparently-my-many-previous-clarifications-werent-enough/#comment-5127</link>
		<dc:creator>Jack</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Jun 2006 00:08:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.angrybrownbutch.com/2006/06/24/98#comment-5127</guid>
		<description>I think it's really easy to feel stuck.  These are really difficult issues without any simple or clear answers.  Sometimes it reminds me of racism - a white person can't just stop having prejudice and racial privilege, but they can do many things to fight racism, both internally and externally.  It's just a matter of figuring out what those things are.  

Heh... did you go to Swat, too?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think it&#8217;s really easy to feel stuck.  These are really difficult issues without any simple or clear answers.  Sometimes it reminds me of racism - a white person can&#8217;t just stop having prejudice and racial privilege, but they can do many things to fight racism, both internally and externally.  It&#8217;s just a matter of figuring out what those things are.  </p>
<p>Heh&#8230; did you go to Swat, too?</p>
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